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Conversations with Krishnamurti From: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/tt06674.html Part One During my encounters with people many asked me to write of my dialogues with Krishnamurti, even knowing I would be retrieving them only from my memory since only a few had been recorded. So it was that I started to think of writing some of my memories down. Nevertheless, some other friends felt that it was unnecessary to write my memories since Krishnamurti had done such a beautiful work of exposition of life and truth for mankind with his own books, videos and audiotapes. I hope that anyone who reads "My Dialogues with Krishnamurti" feels the need to read Krishnamurti himself. I have almost stopped reading, and if I do it is only to read "Krishnamurti Journals" or "Commentaries On Living" by Krishnamurti and "Collected Works of Krishnamurti" (17 volumes Kendall-Hunt) (1933-1967). Looking For The North Political contradiction in Argentina was always high. It came to one of its highest points, though, by the end of August 1972. During this time a group of leftist, guerrilla men and women were killed while in jail at Trelew-Argentina, and I was horrified to hear that one of them had been a friend of the family. I started to get phone calls prompting me to take sides in the armed struggle: "If you are not for the left you are for the right", a man's voice had told me on the phone before he hung-up while I was taking care of a recently born baby in Villada, Argentina, Aug. 23rd 1972. The following day I went to Buenos Aires to get a visa to the U.S.A. (1972). If man looses respect for life we are all at risk from each other. Man becomes his own executioner. Only after two years I got a temporary visa to enter the U.S.A. Every Argentinian was suspicious then. I stopped over in Puerto Rico. There was a man there I wanted to meet: Enrique Biascoechea. I did meet him. He was dying. He had been a friend of Krishnamurti since age nine. He wrote a letter to Krishnamurti telling him that I had left behind my parents, two baby sons, possessions, friends, profession, comfort, and status in order to travel to meet with him. That was in June 1974. Enrique died in Nov 1974. After reaching the U.S. I soon found myself working 16 hours a day as a resident physician in Pennsylvania. I needed a dictionary to dictate my notes. Of the other eight hours of the day I spent four in the basement to study medicine in English to revalidate my license. I slept three or four hours a day and ate only once a day, taking coffee in the morning and again at lunchtime simply to keep myself awake. Sometimes I wondered how my body could bear so much abuse! I got letters from Argentina: "Misery. My family and my friends kept disappearing". I had given up hope to meet Krishnamurti when I got a letter from Mrs. Zimbalist, dated Jan. 5th 1975 in Ojai, California telling me I had a personal interview with Krishnamurti on march 23rd at 4 P.M. at the Huntington Hotel in San Francisco, California. Mrs. Zimbalist volunteered her time for Krishnamurti as a devoted secretary. She is the widow of the late Sam Zimbalist who had produced the reknowned film "Ben Hur". At four P.M. on March 23rd 1975 sharp I knocked at Krishnamurti's door. Mrs. Zimbalist did everything to make me feel comfortable. Krishnamurti came after five minutes. I stood up from the armchair to shake his hand. He looked smaller than I expected him to be. He wore an old blue jacket. He sat in front of me with nothing in between the two chairs. Mrs. Zimbalist left silently. We sat there looking at each other. I will never be able to describe that moment when Krishnamurti was gazing at me. I felt at the same time all the love I had felt for my parents, my sons, my girlfriends, my friends (dead or alive)... There was long silence. Krishnamurti said: Biascoechea says you are ready to work for the Foundation. I said: I may not be wise or free enough for that. Krishnamurti: You will. Ruben: What would the work imply? Krishnamurti: Publishing books, videos and tapes. Ruben: That implies managing money. Krishnamurti: Millions of dollars. Ruben: That horrifies me. I'm not ready for that. I thought I would have to travel with you, type your lectures from recorded tapes.... things like that. Krishnamurti: (Laughing) You can do more than that Dr... Ruben: My name is Ruben Ernesto Feldman-Gonzalez. Krishnamurti: That's confusing, may I call you Dr. Gonzalez? Ruben: Of course, but my real name is Anger. Krishnamurti: (touching my left knee) Ah! I'm glad you don't wear a mask like so many that come to me pretending to be saints. Ruben: I'm far from that. I feel a complete repugnance for the so-called political situation of Argentina, my country of birth, and even for the way my profession is practiced. I'm a pediatric surgeon. I had started to study psychiatry (July 1974) in Pennsylvania to see why the world has gone so crazy. Nevertheless I'm not impressed, the approach to treatment in psychiatry is conventional... standardized. I'll leave psychiatry too. I don't know what I will do. Krishnamurti: Don't leave psychiatry. Change it. Ruben: I never thought you would give me concrete advice like that. It sounds absurd though. Changing psychiatry sounds like changing the color of the crickets of the world. Krishnamurti: You have to change psychiatry. Ruben: I wish I knew what you meant. Krishnamurti: You have to meet Dr. David Bohm in London. Let's go there soon. Ruben: I wish I could, perhaps if I get a loan. Krishnamurti: No! Don't ask for a loan. You'll meet him soon anyway. Ruben: I need to make changes. I have no peace. Friends have disappeared in Argentina. Everything seems so chaotic and corrupt.... Krishnamurti: (smiling) You need exercise (Krishnamurti touched my belly with the tip of his left index finger). Ruben: I work 16 hours a day and then I have to sit to study for four hours a day before I go to sleep. All this to renew my medical license in the USA. Krishnamurti: That's an excuse. Take care of yourself. You need exercise. You look like a bull. Ruben: Sometimes I feel that I need to share my understanding with people around the world. What do you say to that? Krishnamurti: You speak. A very long silence followed. I had expected him to tell me to "stay put" and spend the rest of my life in silent meditation. With very few words he was the perfect mirror for my own contradictions to emerge and be clearly seen. He insisted: The Foundation in Puerto Rico has no head. I hope you will take it (he grabbed my left knee). Ruben: Krishnaji, when I was with Biascoechea everything seemed so easy. Now I see I don't have the peace of mind, the right skills nor the freedom (the sons and two parents to feed) to dedicate myself sensibly to such an important and difficult task. It is certainly no picnic. Krishnamurti: I hope you take it. Another long silence followed. Krishnamurti discussed several items regarding the Foundation's translations, people like Salvado Sendra, Vimala Thakar, personal and ideological struggles within the Foundations, etc. Ruben: I'm eager to meet Salvador and Vimala... but people from the Fourth Path are trying to mix what you say with what others have said and are quite willing to control the Foundations. Krishnamurti: That has been going on all the time and not only with them. The Fourth Path is a path of violence which reinforces the ego and the wish to control life and its course. Do not touch it. The first insight is to drop everything non-essential for the total liberation of mankind. Ruben: Now that you mention the non-essential.... Why did you allow the biography of yours written by Lutyens to be published? It's gossipy and superficial, and it may not be right selling "At the Feet of the Master" ... with your name on it. Krishnamurti: Not my books. Ruben: And they are making a profit. Krishnamurti: It's not my business. Ruben: How would you recommend your books to be read, and in what order? Krishnamurti: Do not read them like a novel. Read slowly as if your life was in every word and every sentence. Start with the last one and then if there is an interest go backwards through the first one. Ruben: Should we read all your books? Krishnamurti: If you take a train in San Francisco to go to Los Angeles... would you get off in Santa Barabara? We both laughed. One had to laugh very often in the company of Krishnamurti. Today the order of the books would be: "Ending of Time" I asked: Why don't you eat meat? He answered: Pity. I expected a longer lecture but that was all he said. Again a long silence. The silence was alive, the silence of two alert friends seeing together the same thing at the same time. He stood up and said. "Excuse me Dr. Gonzalez, I'll prepare some tea for you". At the kitchen in the big suite he whispered something with Mrs. Zimbalist who was sitting there. He came back with a cup of tea. He said: "Tea of roses for you". I sipped it, but I didn't like it. I left it on the little table beside us. Ruben: Can we talk about meditation? Krishnamurti: Is there anything else? Ruben: Well, the very word meditation is used by gurus of all kinds to make money, sell silly books, techniques, pillows, crystals, mantras, and incense. Krishnamurti: I have been using the word for 50 years. I can't change it now. People will have to see I use the word with a different meaning. I do not use the word meditation with its traditional meaning! Ruben: What about using the expression "Unitary Perception" instead. Krishnamurti: You use it. (Krishnamurti said he would not use the word meditation anymore during his last talk in England in 1985, ten years later.) Krishnamurti: Why not live very simply? Call it meditation or Unitary Perception. Self protection and self aggrandizement through money making and success have to end in order to live simply. To live simply is to live intelligently, without an observer in observation. If you believe you have to go back to Argentina to be loyal to some concept of yours you are not simple. If you are angry you are not simple. If you are full of sorrow you can't love anyone. Can you be spontaneous and simply act with not too much planning? Ruben: You are not saying I have to remain alone and live in poverty and silence. Krishnamurti: Would that be simple? Would you be escaping from life? The consummation of truth is not to be successful or wealthy... but do you want complete truth? Look for success or money and you'll find frustration. Look for truth and you'll receive total peace of mind and joy. Will you be one of the few? Or will you continue being one of the many worshippers of money and success? After a long silence, he said: "Dr. Gonzalez, your tea must be cold already, finish it!" I didn't have the courage to say no and I did finish it silently. He said: "Let's meet tomorrow at eight A.M. Krishnamurti went with me to the door, opened it for me and smiled lovingly saying: "Good bye". I said: What noun should be applied to what you teach-- "message", "gospel",..., or what? Krishnamurti said: Call it "the teachings". Let's meet tomorrow at eight A.M., right here. I spend the rest of the afternoon by myself in my room, which I had rented at the same hotel where Krishnamurti was staying. I felt like a Condor for the rest of the day. I met Krishnamurti by chance in the lobby that evening. I walked with him for awhile. I saw a couple of very beautiful girls. I said: "God, how beautiful they are". He said: "Only well fed". I said: "Krishnaji, I felt like a Condor the whole afternoon, full of peace and joy and love. I think it's because I spent some time with you." Krishnamurti said: "For how long do you want to be infected?"
Part Two Memorized after the encounter--not recorded on audiotape I met Krishnamurti on March the 23rd 1975 in San Francisco, California. I have already written about that. My last name is Feldman Gonzalez but Krishnamurti addressed me only as Dr. Gonzalez. March 24, 1975 (Huntington Hotel - San Francisco, California) Krishnamurti: Sorry, I made you wait. I was doing some Hatha Yoga. Ruben: No problem. Thank you for receiving me again. I would like to discuss the fact that you are the instructor of the world (or the Second Coming). Krishnamurti: You worry about the irrelevant. Ruben: It is relevant for me, because if you are the Instructor of the World, then I want to be an apostle. Krishnamurti: There are no more apostles, Dr. Gonzalez. It is of critical urgency that human beings change radically. They have to detach themselves from the content of mankind's consciousness, they have to live without touching the stream of growing vulgarity and violence. Egocentric activity has to end, the desire for profit, power and prestige. One needs to learn to live psychologically alone, that is to be content without depending on anybody or anything. Ruben: That they detach themselves from the content of mankind's consciousness?... then, how does one live? Krishnamurti: You don't become comatose, you don't enter into a drug or alcohol induced trance, you don't live in a state of hypnosis, nor asleep even while awake. You live in complete attention. Are you aware that observation is attention? Ruben: Fundamental action. Krishnamurti: Observation is action. To observe totally doesn't mean to be negligent nor socially indifferent. If you observe totally, each one of your actions changes in nature. You free yourself from the choking grip of traditional memory and you also start to think sanely and freely. So there is total observation and new thought and action. (We spent a long time in silence) Ruben: Are you greater than Jesus? Krishnamurti: Do you want me to say "yes"? Ruben: Tell me what do you think? Krishnamurti: Mankind is not the same. In the last 2000 years there have been three wars every year in the world and there has been a consequent degradation of human beings, the son of humanity can not be the same. Ruben: You are talking of the Son of Man (with capital letters) aren't you? You are talking of the Greek "uios tou antropon" (the son of man). Aren't you? Krishnamurti: The son of humanity is today the son of a degraded mankind. Then... what do you do? Ruben: I listen to Krishnamurti. Krishnamurti: For how long? Ruben: Until I understand and radical change occurs. Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away the content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure awareness, pure listening. Ruben: When I asked you whether I could speak publicly you said, "you speak". Krishnamurti: You speak. "That" is not only for you. Ruben: Can you tell me more about talking to people about all this? Krishnamurti: You talk and expect no-thing. (LONG PAUSE) (In vital silence) Krishnamurti had said "no-thing", he had not said "nothing". Krishnamurti: It's time for lunch Dr. Gonzalez. March 25, 1975 (Hotel Huntington, San Francisco, California) Krishnamurti: Good morning Dr. Gonzalez. Ruben: Good morning. Krishnamurti: I guess you have some questions, right? Ruben: You told me two days ago that you'll never die in an aircraft, what is it that makes you feel protected? Krishnamurti: That. Ruben: O.K. Please, tell me about That (Or the Other). Krishnamurti: You can see That in action, but you can't talk about it. (LONG PAUSE) (In complete silence) Ruben: You already know that some of my friends disappeared in Argentina. Sometimes I feel deep sorrow for Argentina and for the rest of the world. How come so much horror? Krishnamurti: You can be free of all conditioning and then you'll be free of sorrow. When you are not an Argentinian anymore you'll be able to do more for mankind and even for Argentina. I was born in India. I had an English passport. When India declared its independence from England I asked for an Indian passport. Since then I have great problems to get visas when I travel around, but I'm not English nor Hindu. I'm a human being. Ruben: You are a very special human being. You are easy to love. Krishnamurti: I admit I'm different, but the transformation that has occurred in me can occur in any other human being. And nobody needs Krishnmurti or Dr. Ruben for that radical transformation, which is so necessary, to occur. Ruben: Maybe not, but a serious dialogue helps. Krishnamurti: With no guru. Dialogue without gurus. Ruben: Could we say that you are being my guru without us wanting it and that I'm being your guru without it being my purpose? Krishnamurti: Then there is a serious dialogue. You and I are seeing together the same thing at the same time. The most repugnant thing is to prostrate yourself to another human being and adore him or her. (LONG PAUSE) (In vibrant silence) Ruben: Someone told me you sometimes even faint out of sheer physical pain... What is that? Krishnamurti: I call it "the process" but I don't understand it nor want to. I leave all the explanations about "the process", healing, and clairvoyance to doctors like yourself (laughing). Ruben: I'd like you to tell me how to heal. I mean healing in its pristine and complete sense. Krishnamurti: Again Dr. speaking (Long pause) I prepared tea for you the other day. You found it bitter and left it. I had to ask you to finish it. You still have predilections, Dr. Gonzalez. Ruben: So, to heal (with capital letters) you need to have no predilections. Krishnamurti: No, no. It's necessary not to have predilections. Period. If you're content for something you're not content. (LONG PAUSE) Ruben: Would you summarize the teaching in only one sentence? Krishnamurti: Attempt without effort to live with death in futureless silence. Ruben: It sounds absurd. Krishnamurti: Some time ago, in 1972, I spent a full morning with That without leaving my bed. I was completely quiet, before doing my Hatha yoga (only physical yoga, just to keep a flexible body)... that was like a flame in the center of immensity. And the center of immensity was my brain. Do you understand? Ruben: Yes. (LONG PAUSE) Krishnamurti: Then, what are you waiting for? Ruben: What? Are you by any chance saying that That is ready for me right now? Krishnamurti: That's right. But you are too sad. What a waste! Then, what are you waiting for? Ruben: I want to understand that sentence: "Die in silence without future". I think it would be better to say "attempt without effort to live in peace in futureless silence". Krishnamurti: No. Death is the end of all you are afraid to loose: your attachments, your memory, your disappeared friends, your prestige as a children's surgeon. All that is the content of your consciousness. Can you get rid of it right now, now that you're young and healthy and not wait for 50 years for it to crumble by itself? It's easy for me to die. Ruben: Saint Paul said: "I die every day". Krishnamurti: Paul said "I die every day" and Dr. Gonzalez repeats what Paul says and nothing at all happens. Ruben: You're more of a surgeon than I am. Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, your brain has been as it is for the last million years. For how long will it be like that? Will you go to bed tonight with that brain of yours as it always has been? Habit, sorrow, anger, etc.? Ruben: I wouldn't be here if I wanted to go to bed with this brain as it is. Nevertheless, I know I shouldn't accept what you say just blindly. I have to experience it. Would you be able to facilitate the experience of that which may transform my brain and my life? Krishnamurti: If I was so stupid as to facilitate it, then all I say would become a theory or a technique, like so many others. You have to do it yourself, Dr. Gonzalez. Climb to the summit and look, or do you prefer to go to bed and beg me to describe it to you? Would you be satisfied with my description? Then you have no substance, then you are a second- hand human being. (PAUSE) Ruben: How does mediocrity end? Krishnamurti: As you get rid of the contents of human consciousness, will you get rid of all word? Ruben: Without saying "Krishnamurti is talking to me". Krishnamurti: Or he who listens is a "respectable Dr." You simply listen totally in pure silence. Ruben: Nevertheless, even with no words, I'll be able to talk meaningfully from deep silence. Krishnamurti: For the first time, quite sir. The word God is not God. Ruben: Will it help to stop sex with my wife? (*) Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, if you love, you love your wife, then you do what you will and there is beauty in what you do. Don't worry about sex, do it or don't. Now, let's be silent for a while because Mr. and Mrs. Lillifelt will be here soon. We will have to talk, because you know well Dr. Gonzalez, that I will not live forever. Perhaps ten years more and the chap will be gone. COMMENTS (*) The relationship with my wife ended three years later
when she left our house, which I immediately got rid of. Ever since then
I live in the desert without securing my future. The meeting followed
the dialogue but I have already written about it. Krishnmurti died
almost exactly ten years later. Part Three Brockwood Park June 1978 In April 1976 I met Krishnamurti and Mrs. Zimbalist at an international meeting he attended with psychiatrists at the Carnegie Institute of Endowment in New York. It had been organized by Dr. David Shainberg from New York. The meetings were tape recorded, so I will not discuss them. When the last meeting ended I approached Krishnamurti as usual to shake his hand and make a few comments. This time Krishnamurti looked tired and only said a few words: "Did anybody listen?" Krishnamurti used to make intentional pauses between words. "Please see Dr. Bohm in England and then see me in Brockwood, as soon as you can". I just said goodbye. Krishnamurti was sweating and there was no joy on his face. It wasn't until June 18th 1978 that I landed at Heathrow Airport in London (from Miami). I took a bus to Woking and from there a train to Petersfield. Mrs. Zimbalist was waiting for me at the station in Petersfield. I was dressed as informally as I could, and I asked her why we were driving a Mercedes. She said it was a good car. I had the belief then that the teacher of the world should dress informally and even poorly and perhaps live uncomfortably. Looking backwards I try to understand my lack of sensitivity and I can only partially justify it, telling myself I was so eager to see the truth in Krishnamurti that I was doing at the same time everything possible to find out what was he hiding: either some esoteric teaching for the chosen few or some ugly business for some corporation. But there was nothing of one nor of the other. Krishnamurti was talking about the only thing that matters, and he was order, beauty, love and truth. Only it was too hard to believe! I shared meals with Krishnamurti for ten days in a row. I sat with him, Dr. Bohm and his wife, Mrs. Zimbalist, Mrs. Simmons and Mr. Narayan who was at that time Principal of the Rishi Valley School in India. On June 22nd and 23rd three cameras were set up to film the dialogues between Krishnamurti, Bohm, Narayan and Dr. Rahula, a Buddhist from Sri Lanka. Krishnamurti invited me to participate, and I, as usual, refused. During lunch, the following day I asked Krishnamurti what did he think of the Buddhist specialist. Krishnamurti said, "You know there are many library mouses who can only repeat what they read, they are unable to live what they read. During the whole conversation there was not one moment of insight. He did nothing but compare the new (what Krishnamurti says) with the old (Buddhism). He compares everything with Buddha, he doesn't want to be a Buddha." During one of those meals Narayan asked Krishnamurti to talk about reincarnation. Krishnamurti only said this: "What is it that continues?" After lunch I approached Krishnamurti who was walking alone with his dog Whisper under the trees. I told Krishnamurti I had been watching my sexual desire very closely the night before. I had been given a room where I slept by myself. I asked, "Is there anything one can do not to repress the desire and not to free it in conduct?" Krishnamurti said, "Be a light to yourself." Talking to whisper (the dog) he said: "Let's go Che-che". By that time one of the male students (all between 14 and 22 years old) had gone to the room of one of the girls. There was an ongoing administrative process to expel them both from the school. Krishnamurti decided he would discuss sex with the students but he didn't want the visiting parents who were staying in Brockwood that summer to participate. I started to leave but Krishnamurti called me: "You have to be present", he said. The students were angry during that meeting. One of them said to Krishnamurti, "You speak of freedom so much, why do you restrict sexual freedom in the school?" Krishnamurti answered: "This school is like a home for you. Why wouldn't you take care of the school as you would take care of your home? You know we are under the laws of England and that we have to respect the laws; otherwise, they are going to close the school." I met Krishnamurti soon after a series of long conversations with David Bohm regarding his concept of Holokinesis or holomovement. Krishnamurti: Did you talk to Bohm? Ruben: Yes. The place was small but the conversation was big. Dr. Bohm was patient enough to listen to all I had to say. He said my approach to perception could be very helpful for those who have the mind to listen. I'm trying to polish the language as much as I can. Krishnamurti: That's good, but words have to be simple. Sometimes I have felt like creating a new language. But one has to speak to those who listen, and one has to use the words we have. Ruben: Dr. Bohm agreed with me that whoever listens in unitary perception (holokinetic listening if you want) will have a changed molecular structure of the brain, of each neuron. Krishnamurti: Quite, quite. Ruben: That brain will make contact in a conscious way with what you call "the ground". Krishnamurti: Perhaps, yes. There was an art show later. I discussed "Discipline" in Brockwood Park with Mathew Lazarus. When I met Krishnamurti, I told him: Ruben: I was talking about "discipline" with one of the students. He said that western students define discipline in Brockwood as "strict". Eastern students consider it "loose". Krishnamurti: Discipline is the skill to learn. You either have it or you don't. Ruben: Krishnaji, as I told you three years ago I don't see much meaning in working as a physician in a society that is getting more and more corrupt by the minute. You told me in 1975 that I shouldn't quit psychiatry (as I quit pediatric surgery) and that I should change psychiatry. What I see is that it is difficult for people to understand the basics of the new psychology and the new physics and even if they do understand nothing seems to happen... society continues to be based upon war... Krishnamurti: Why do you separate God and work? Why can't you be
joyful, peaceful, honest and creative in your work? Part Four March 30, 1980 Ojai - California There may be one day of error in this date Ruben: Last year we couldn't talk too much. Mary (Zimbalist) takes good care of you. She didn't let me see you. Simple as that (laughing). Krishnamurti: I asked her to live longer than I will, so she helps me to take care of "the horse". They claim that I take care of my body as a cavalry officer takes care of his horse. Maria is a good officer. Ruben: I guess that without her it would be difficult to be even one minute by yourself, with so many people wanting to talk to you. People love you. Krishnamurti: No, very few want to discuss anything serious. They fall in love with me and want to be close, that's all. It's not that they love. Ruben: I'm glad to know Dr. David Bohm will talk with you and that the talks will be recorded. Please tell him I'd like to see him again. Krishnamurti: Yes, we will record our talks with Dr. Bohm. I didn't know what we would do in the two days in California this time, but seems it will happen. Ruben: I hope you talk about the problem of time. It was when I had my first contact with That, at the Frankfurt Airport in 1978, that I understood what is irrelevant time. It was the last thing I understood, the difference between relevant and irrelevant time. I think if somebody understands that difference right away That has to barge in. Krishnamurti: Quite, Dr. Gonzalez. Ruben: It's a pity that that "contact" is not a voluntary thing, because I would not like to live in any other way anymore. It's like healing or group-mind. It happens without one knowing how or why: It's perhaps semi-deliberate... Krishnamurti: Don't get trapped in it when it happens. Ruben: No, but it's fascinating. Krishnamurti: It would be good to have you in our dialogue with Dr. Bohm, somebody who knows about the brain and intellectual psychology. Ruben: Excuse me, but I'm not ready to participate in that dialogue. I'm going through a family crisis, my sons are in Argentina, and it's better not to talk about that. You might remember that last year, after having a walk with them, you told me: "Don't ask them what happened". That was in April 1979. Their mother left our house abruptly in August 79. Is all this irrelevant time? Krishnamurti: Yes, but you said you have tried the Ocean water. Don't avoid exposure Dr. Gonzalez. You already have something to say. I hope you'll participate and contribute. Ruben: I'm very sorry I can't do it right now. It's not that I don't want it or that I'm afraid. I simply can't. I think I'm going through a small night of the soul, as they used to say. Krishnamurti: I hope you can. Speak and expect no-thing. Don't expect to preserve your respectable merits, untie the ocean. The Ocean will flood Dr. Gonzalez. There will be nothing left of him. (PAUSE) Ruben: I'm thinking of working only four hours a day and living in the desert or by the sea, far from big cities. I made contacts in San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara (with Dr. Ben whom you know so well), Ventura, Hawaii, etc. I want to live simply and with austerity. In November 1979 I refused an offer by Dr. Karl Pribram at Stanford University in California, to work with him in brain research. Krishnamurti: You love and you do what you will. But austerity may not be simple. Ruben: I got rid of everything I had. Krishnamurti: Be careful that austerity be simple. Ruben: What do you mean? Krishnamurti: You may live in a mansion and spend the night in a grand hotel, as long as your future is not in your memory. He who dies being rich has lived in vain. Ruben: I agree. The doubts I have refer to the security of my two sons. I only don't want to have more children. I'm a pediatric surgeon and a pediatric neurologist-- psychiatrist, but I don't know what to tell my children. The world is not fit for children. Krishnamurti: Be responsible with the commitments you have taken upon yourself, but don't worry. Ruben: I think my first commitment is to share the treasure of That when one truly lives in it. I'm spending everything I can spare traveling around the world and talking from That. That has come several times. Krishnamurti: Yes, you look different. Since you come from Latin America, why not concentrate on Latin America? Tickets and hotels are more and more expensive every day and you know how difficult it is to get a visa sometimes. Nobody will pay your expenses from Latin American. Those who could pay will not listen and those who listen will not pay. Besides that, you need to take care of your health, you need exercise, Dr. Gonzalez. It's a problem to be in a hospital, all plans altered. That's what happened to me in 1977 when they operated upon my prostate. It was a chance to die and never come back, but there is a lot to do yet. You think it's generous to forget one's health, right? Ruben: (laughing) I think it's the problem of almost every physician, the idea that you have to take care of people's health and forget oneself. I was lucky to be born in a vegetarian home, that I never drank (alcohol) or used drugs or tobacco. Krishnamurti: Beware of your generosity, Dr. Gonzalez, the end of the body shouldn't be precipitated by suicide nor the generosity of forgetting one's own body. What do you do when you talk with people in Latin America? Have you ever tried to ask a question in a group for nobody to answer? See what happens. Ruben: I speak in Universities with professors and students. When riots and strikes start (which happens quite often due to the situation of oppression and plunder of which Latin America is victim) then I rent a hotel lecture-room, place an ad in a local paper (all quite expensive) and I invite the whole town, as I have done repeatedly in Caracas, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Rosario, several towns in Mexico and Lima. In Costa Rica there were no problems at the University (San Jose). Perhaps that's because Costa Rica has no Army. I speak of time and its relationship to consciousness, to perception. I speak of "Unitary Perception". Local gurus don't like me to talk because that's the end of their spiritual business. I also understand that when you told me "you talk" it's implicit I'm the only one responsible for what I say. I do not represent you nor interpret your teaching. Krishnamurti: Quite. Don't forget that in silence flowers an intuitive understanding. Do you talk of living orderly and peacefully and honestly? That's not so difficult and that's the beginning. It's important to emphasize a radical change in daily life. Partial reforms (political, economic, ideologic) are not enough. Ruben: But they are urgently needed in Latin America, otherwise a lot of blood will be spilled. Krishnamurti: yes, but without a radical psychological transformation a partial reform will only procrastinate the blood spill. (PAUSE) Ruben: If wars don't stop today, there will be war tomorrow. (PAUSE) Krishnamurti: Have you been flattered or invalidated? Ruben: More flattered than invalidated. Both may be the same. Krishnamurti: They are both rubbish, don't you see? They have done it with me, all my life. To adore or to mock is easier than listening. You know. Ruben: I see it clearly. But change seems to be difficult. Krishnamurti: Do you know that you can help those students to change? Ruben: I hope so... but... that contradicts... Krishnamurti: Give them all your compassion and all your intelligence and even the last minute of your time and energy, but learn to rest in silence. You work too much. Listen well to each one of them. In intelligence and compassion you are a little sun. You'll give light and warmth... and some will praise you, or will mock you from the shadows. Some others will sit in the sun. (LONG PAUSE) Ruben: Do you think I should speak without using my name (anonymously)? Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez you have four names, don't confuse me even more with your anonymity. Do not avoid exposure. Don't be afraid of loosing anything. There's nothing to loose. You told me you're responsible for what you say, anonymous or not! Ruben: What do I do with healing? Krishnamurti: Healing the body is of secondary importance. Do what you will. But don't do it because someone wants it. Ruben: What do you do with the aura? Krishnamurti: Nothing. We have discussed this matter the first time we met. If you get trapped in something marvelous you'll not allow for the next marvelous thing to happen. Leave the aura alone. Leave kundalini alone. "That" cleanses everything. You don't need to worry. Ruben: Sometimes you see something unbearable in someone you love. What do you do? Krishnamurti: Do you have predilections? Or will you look for some reason for it? It seems unbearable to love someone who will not get interested in That. There is a brother I would like to get interested... he resists... but that's that. Ruben: The saddest thing for me is to see what human beings could be but are not. I would even stop watching the news, but it's hard. (LONG PAUSE) Krishnamurti: I watch the news sometimes, or else someone else summarizes them for me. The spiritual state of mankind is deplorable. Don't you see how urgently necessary your own transformation is, Dr. Gonzalez? Every child should travel around the world. Then they could cry for all mankind and they would stop thinking as Argentineans, Hindis, Russians, American, Japanese, etc. Ruben: Nothing seems to be enough to understand something so simple. Krishnamurti: Your own total psychological transformation is enough. It's enough to get rid of mankind's consciousness. It's necessary to do so and that is the pure silence and the pure peace of the brain. But that can't be left for tomorrow, if one is serious. Ruben: Silence without name. Krishnamurti: It's like a house which doesn't have a place for silence... it will be a house with a lot of activity, plenty of noise, but there That will not enter. There has to be a room in each house where the only thing you can do there is to be silent and nothing else. That room will be the flame of the house. Ruben: Then each home would be like a temple... Krishnamurti: Each home would be a home without sorrow, that is a good home. (LONG PAUSE) Krishnamurti: Well Dr. Gonzalez, it's time to go now. I'm sorry. Ruben: Krishnaji, before we go... I hope you give me the names of those you think have understood you best, even when not absolutely well. I'd like to talk with all of them. Krishnamurti: They are few, so find them and meet them. Untie the ocean together. Ruben: Thank you for all, my friend. Part Five Five Years in Ojai I saw Krishnamurti many times in the last five years of his life. I can't remember the dates well except that my meetings with him happened during the two or three weeks the public talks in Ojai were being held. It was clear for me that I was not going to depend on Krishnamurti for anything, but I still was intent in discovering "the complete silence of the mind". Whenever we met in Ojai it was with David Bohm and a small group of friends, or occasionally by chance close to Arya Vihar (his residence) or at the Oak Grove School. One day I told him the eternal That, the immense joyful energy... had "touched" me. I also told him that very soon it left me. The meaning of That touching me was immense, it made me very strong during the few big adversities of my life. I asked him, "Why that doesn't come more often?" Krishnamurti said, "What do you do with your energy?" I think it was in 1981 that a birthday party was organized for him (in May) by the people working at the four Foundations. Krishnamurti arrived and stood in silence for three or four minutes. Suddenly a gentleman with a Bostonian or perhaps English accent approached Krishnamurti and said: "I understand you are a Brahmin from India". Krishnamurti said, "I only have a passport from India". He soon left the party. When the last talk of 1985 ended in Ojai in May I decided I wouldn't attend any more Krishnamurti talks. Krishnamurti died in February 1986 anyway. It struck me, after his death, while I was listening to the last of his talks in England, held in 1985, that he said: "I will not use the word meditation anymore". I had asked him to do that several times. One day we were at an orange grove in Arya Vihar, simply enjoying the scent of spring in silence. I said, "I worry the schools are going to become elitist and that only the wealthy will be able to send their children to them." Krishnamurti said: "We have to work with what we have and we have to talk with the words we have. I was born in a very poor home and some of my brothers died from tuberculosis or malnutrition. But look at me! I'm doing very well, huh?" I said, "you were lucky you had teachers like Leadbeater who was even clairvoyant." Krishnamurti said, "Yes, I was very lucky. Leadbeater was temporarily clairvoyant, and I was lucky that everything he said entered through my right ear and left through the left." We were sitting with David Bohm and Krishnamurti. I told Krishnamurti: "From the conversations the three of us have had, including the one with Dr. Sheldrake, one may infer that when one human mind is consummate in intelligence and love, that mind will inexorably influence (non-verbally) in an energetic (holokinetic) way, all human minds at the same time. Now if Krishnamurti is totally transformed or consummate, how come one doesn't see it more in people around us or even in the whole world? How come the sorrow, the brutality, the vulgarity, the insensitivity of people is not reduced? Why don't we see the transformation more? At that point Krishnamurti told Dr. Bohm, "Professor Bohm, you have been a co-worker of Albert Einstein but even so one can still talk to you without a mask. (Krishnamurti smiled)... how would you answer to that question? Why don't we see the change?" Dr. Bohm meditated for a few seconds and said: "As a physicist I only know that 99% of all phenomena occurring in matter and energy are invisible." May 1983 Krishnamurti had public talks in Ojai rather late in the Spring of 83. I was with my two sons: Sebastian age nine and Demian age eight. We couldn't get a motel in Ojai. They were all full. We spent the nights at the Holiday Inn in Ventura right beside the Pacific Ocean. My sons were happy. We had the sea, and Ojai was only thirty minutes away by car. It is claimed that "Ojai" means "The Nest of God" in the local American-Indian tongue. On the morning of Saturday, May 14th, 1983 we arrived at the Oak Grove School in Ojai (Founded by Krishnamurti in 1974) at about 9:30 A.M. We parked the car and went for a slow walk under a sunny light-blue sky among the oak trees. There was a delightful breeze between the blue mountains and the ocean. There were already more than 1000 people for the lecture that would start two hours later. I met many friends from different parts of the world. We were elated by our mutual company and by the expectation of listening to Krishnamurti in person again. The blend of nature, friendship and the sacred is beauty itself. And that day we were deep into the glorious light of beauty and the rare presence of love. Krishnamurti talked for an hour or so about the deplorable spiritual state of mankind. Three thousand people listened in silence. It was only Krishnamurti's voice and the breeze among the Oak trees. Hundreds of birds were chirping. He said we have to be a light to ourselves because "there is no one to go to". Social and individual corruption grows. He said it's perfectly possible to relate without a shadow of conflict. At the end he shook hands with me and my two sons. "It's good to see you for a moment", he said. Demian said, "Krishnamurti has cold hands, Dad". I said, "Krishnamurti is eighty-eight years old, and he was talking for more than an hour under the trees in the breeze". It was during that weekend that we met at Arya Vihara in Ojai. There was a circle of chairs with at least ten people sitting with Krishnamurti. It was three or four P.M., and it was easy to lose track of time in that kind of atmosphere after a cup of tea. After Krishnamurti joined us we remained in silence. One had to absorb his presence before any action was possible. At one point he asked, "Am I a freak?" I said, "You may not be a freak but possibly the genetic pool you come from makes you definitely more able to be free from the influence of human memory (both individual and philogenetic). That has made you more able to be in total contact with reality, while we are at best only partially in contact with it." Krishnamurti said something close to the following, "We may have genetic differences but we are all able to 'touch' the ground or the totality of the mind, and that ground is the most important thing for human life". I said, "The ground being the cosmic mind or the holokinetic source of life...." Krishnamurti said, "The ground being complete silence of the mind (he emphasized the word 'complete'), then we can talk". He finished. I said, "Is there something external that comes to us (or to Krishnamurti) in certain specific circumstances? Krishnamurti said, "It may come now when two or more meet to discuss seriously, which means with no wish for money or success and letting all the masks that protect us drop off. Water will not know what water is. We can only discuss what water is not. You may explain water well but you have to swim in the sea as well". I said, "We are in California. If you had to only use the words from the Bible how would you tell me what you just said to me?" Krishnamurti said: "It's revelation. Something that happens every time I speak. But now, since that happens, I prefer to use my own words which are less loaded with distortions". I said, "Tell us more about that." Krishnamurti said, "It's too big for words". A long silence followed. I finally asked, "what will we do, the ones that have tasted a few drops of that water?" Krishnamurti said, "Those few will have to shout from the housetops before it's too late for mankind". I told him that some people were angry at him for the way he had said some things. Many seemed unable to forgive Krishnamurti for what he had said in Saanen in 1980: "God is disorder and if man is God's creation, God has to be horrible, a monstrous entity. God must be disorder since we live in disorder. If he made us like He is and we are killing each other, then He must be monstrous". Krishnamurti said: "What God are we talking about? Is it the God that man made? Those that get angry want to substitute the experience of God, the man-made God. It's not so easy. That word is disorder, not the experience. Where the word is, experience is not. Where experience is, there may or may not be the word".
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