BABA: When I sit here I feel just like I am sitting in India!

PRADEEP: Did you go outdoors?

BABA: I didn't go outside at all. I'm embarrassed to go outside. Somebody will ask me something in English and I won't be able to give an answer. That's why.

SANAT: Have you had any trouble up to now? In all the places you have been, have you had any trouble?

BABA: (inaudible)

SANAT: Did you have any difficulty there? You said everything you wanted.

BABA: You were there. That's why I had no trouble.

SANAT: I wasn't there, you were there.

BABA: I can't speak English. Let's say Pradeep asked me, "What is your name?" I can speak Hindi, I can speak Bengali. If somebody spoke Oriya, I can speak that too. If Madrasi, that too.

PRADEEP: You are now learning so fast you will overtake us! We just started learning.

BABA: I am near you. I have gotten sons like you. So why shouldn't I learn? I have become everybody's son now. I see that the whole world is just Father-Mother. I don't see any other form. So naturally I will learn. Why shouldn't I?

Look, this match has fire in it. When you rub it, only then it will light. (Shows match and matchbox). This is God, the unmoving, this is Brahma. And this match is the sadhak. I show people God-Sadhak, God-Sadhak. I know only one word - God. I don't know anything else.

Avidya Jivanam Sunya. Ignorance of the truth makes the life empty. Grihya sunyacha badhobha. No friends makes the house empty. Grihya sunyam jabrita, digha sunya na bandhu.

Vidya, knowledge, is of two kinds. From knowledge comes knowledge. Why do you need book knowledge? To get the knowl edge of the Gods. Why do you need knowledge of the Gods?

Aham. Who am I? To know "Who am I?" I need knowledge of the Gods. Why do I need knowledge? To get inner knowledge. Why do I need inner knowledge? To get the knowledge of the Gods. Why do I need knowledge of the Gods? To know "Aham Brahma" (I am that Brahma) That's it. Finished. Vidya, avidya.

PRADEEP: What is avidya (ignorance)?

BABA: Avidya is this: kama, krodh, lobha, moha, madho, mascharja. (Lust, anger, greed, pride, envy [Tr.?], vanity [Tr.?]) To come under the way of these six senses. To please these six senses. If you don't concentrate, meditate and think about God, and you go onto a wrong path, that is called "avidya."

There is another meaning of avidya. A-vidya (Beyond knowledge). The word avidya -- Prahlad, Dhruba, Thakur Ramakrishna, Ramprasad, Tulsidas, Guru Nanak, Turiyananda -- they have avidya, meaning full of knowledge. Uncountable knowledge. That is also called avidya. Vidya shesh. [Beyond worldly knowledge, the End of knowledge].

PRADEEP: Ashankhya vidya means avidya? ("Uncountable" knowledge means "without knowledge"?)

BABA: Avidya. It cannot be proven. Complete ignorance is avidya. One who is under the influence of lust, anger, greed, etc., under the influence of pride, filled with vanity. "Panditascho guna sarve, murkahi dujati kevalo." He might be a pandit, but some foolish error is there, which is pride. "Jati mohoto vidya, rupo jovana mebocho, pancho ite bhakti kantaka." These five are the thorns in the path of bhakti (devotion).

I say: "I am a Brahmachari. I am a sadhu!" I have become proud. Down! Finished! If you can throw away the "I"-ness, and you have to do this very carefully, then "It" will appear. Ba!

Yesterday when I was doing asanas I felt some pain in my chest. The girl who danced -- after that I did my asanas and went to sleep. I turned my tongue back. I also stood on one leg. And I was meditating with the kundalini shakti and taking my breath in and out. As I was showing this I pulled my breath in and it got stuck below. Ba!

Pradeep, thank you. Yesterday night when you went away, I was thinking and doing japa and it didn't feel right. I gave you prasad and after you left I though. If I had gotten a son like you before this a great deal of work would have been done. But I didn't get.

Now I'll be running back [to India]. I won't stay too much longer. I have to talk to Premamayi and ask her. I think she will go somewhere for a few days and take me. Then I will run. I told them [in India] that I will only stay for fifteen days. Out of that, twelve days have passed.

PRADEEP: You will stay fifteen days?

BABA: I gave before front God my maya-filled heart's word: fifteen days in America, ten days in Hawaii. We had plans of going to Hawaii. The purpose of going to Hawaii has been fulfilled here. I won't go. I got Hawaii here. The purpose of going to Hawaii was for Ma Brahmamayi, for Mrs. Hart's sake. She has sold her house in America and has made a beautiful home in the island of Hawaii. All around is the sea, and in the middle is the house. There is no need to go to Hawaii. I won't go. I will run back to my country.

I'm not running because I don't like it here, but because I gave my word to everybody that I won't stay many days. I'll run back soon. They didn't want me to go. They said, "You have become an old man, you are old."

I said, "Let me go. This is all maya. So what if I am old? There Ma, the devotees, Ma Premamayi, are calling me very earnestly. They've written a letter from Ramana Mahar shi Ashram." I was supposed to come a year ago. I said no. They wrote me with a soulful mind, very beautiful words, I don't remember the whole thing. Very beautiful. Two or three hundred copies were make and printed in English and people say that they have written, "Please come, because we want to see God himself. We are burning intensely. So please come and give us peace."

The letter was one reason. Ma Premamayi's pull, the attraction of the devotees, the attraction of all of you, that's why I came. I have not come. You people have imprisoned me in a sack, sewed it up, and put me on the plane. What can I do? I haven't come. Nothing! I like it very much. This instant I like it very much.

Yesterday you all left. His duty, why should he come every morning. [Re: Bhavananda's coming in spite of his job]. English. I can speak Hindi very well. I've had a lot of practice in it. I've given a lot of lectures in Hindi, in Benares.

I went to the Chitrakoot Mountain and stayed there for one month. On Chitrakoot Mountain. Near Hanuman's temple.

PRADEEP: What is your name, Baba?

BABA: My name is Prahlad Brahmachari.

PRADEEP: I know, but what is you name. I know "Prahlad Brahmachari."

BABA: That's the name, Baba.

PRADEEP: That is your name.

BABA: Yes, that name. That's the name. There is a history being that name. But I've talked for a long time, let's leave it for today.

The diksha (initiation) I got is another story. My life, filled with so much sorrow, so much pain. That sorrow was not sorrow, it was my tapasya (austerity). Now it would be "poison". Then it wasn't sorrow. It was the time of yoga. Do you understand? My father and mother... My father's name was Sadhu Charan Kar. Understand? He was like a sadhu.

PRADEEP: Sadhu Charan Kar?

BABA: Last name, Kar.

PRADEEP: Why didn't you keep the last name of Kar?

BABA: Since my childhood I have been roaming far from home. Of course sometimes I go home. Usually I had to roam. That's why I didn't keep the name Kar.

The one who is my Mahatma, my Paramaradhya Devata, he gave me the title Brahmachari. I can't take any other name. One must do one's duty. When my father died, nobody had the qualifications to sit on the Panchamundi Asan for nine days and nine nights without food, from morning to four or five in the evening, then after seven o'clock until two in the night, for worship and meditation. I slept there, on that asan. Nobody else could do it. Ask Surendra, he can tell you everything. It isn't right to be coming from my mouth.

Like this my life is going on. Everybody is seeing his guru in front of him. My guru, who gave me mantra.. [pause, silence] Can you see him clearly? [Long pause..] HUGE... [inaudible] feels crazy.. no more wish to live.. Simachal frontier, Simachal... [pause] .. Om.. Om..

(Baba sinks into a deep meditative state, becoming unconscious of the outer world. Several minutes pass by as the devotees look on in amazement. After some time Baba starts weeping and trembling slightly)

BABA: Om. Om. Gurudev! Gurudev! Guru sakshat. When I think about my guru I get this deep feeling. (Weeping:) I don't belong to any ashram. He is ineffable.. He is (inaudible word). I am ignorant. He told me, "A great work will be done through you..."

END Side One [76TC12-A]
-------------------
Start Side Two [76TC12-B]

... (weeping) ..

PRADEEP: Baba, what is the true (ashol) guru?

(Baba misunderstands "ashol" (true) for "achal" (unmoving)).

BABA: Unmoving? Then at that time he wasn't unmoving. He was moving about. I saw his form.. he disappeared. [Sanskrit] Does the Himalayan Mountain move? Is the mountain ever moving? That's why it is said: "Achalam" (unmoving), "Abyapon" (everywhere), "Asheemon" (boundless), "Arupang" (formless).

In the dream I had, during waking (remembering his dream) ... my mother will die, my father will die, I am crying. I am very poor, people are telling me to go home. Walking on the border, I went up by Simachal Mountains. Then there was no [Tr.?].. in Nrisingha Devata Prahlad's place of tapasya, in Simachal. I am eating the fruits that have fallen down. I am crying.

In the middle of the night, while I was still awake, a huge man came. On his waist he had a string and a loincloth. He spoke to me in Hindi. I didn't understand. He talked in Oriya. He knew every language. He gave me twenty-five rupees. "Will you go and see your parents?" Getting that twenty-five rupees I was like a king.

As he turned around to go I asked him, "Won't my life ever amount to anything?"

At that time I wasn't roaming around to be a sadhu, but just to satisfy the pain in my stomach. Those fruits -- there were all different kinds at Simachal Border, like Kantal, pineapple, mango, in abundance. Do you under stand the condition I was in?

When I asked this question he turned around and came back. I was on top of a mountain where there were a lot of trees. Now they have cleared away the trees. He took some leaves and when he pulled my tongue out it felt like I would lose my life. "Oh bapri! Oh bapri! Mama! Baba! I'm dying! I'm dying!" I was saying it in Oriya. He pulled out my tongue from deep down and put the juices from the leaves in the wound on the tongue. How sweet! Like honey. It felt like Amrit (nectar). I cannot explain it in words.

He put his hand on my head and said to me, "Your name is Prahlad Brahmachari. Through you a great work will be done. A lot of work will be done. You will get me in dream or in sleep." After he left, after receiving the juice, my body was shaking.

I looked for him everywhere. For four or five months, after I completed four months and started my fifth month, I used to roam around in the jungle. I would collect fruits and give them to the sadhus. I looked for him everywhere. In the full moonlight a lot of sadhus were sitting, meditating. I asked then: "Have you seen this kind of huge man, such a huge man you cannot see his head.. he has a turban on his head, long hair?"

In the morning I would come down. There were three stores there. One used to sell boiled gram. Another was a tea shop. Very small stores. There were stones that you had to climb up. Nobody would go there for fear of falling and dying.

For three days I roamed in that jungle and I was crying. Everybody said, "You saw him and you let him go? You got God himself and you let him go? Why?"

In my dream one day he came. It wasn't really a dream, it was a kind of a drowse. He stood in front of me and said, "From now on you won't see me in physical form. Through you a great work will be done. When you are needed."

Turning my tongue back he touched it. I can lecture and do all kinds of things. I can read Bengali, I can read Oriya. If you stand me in a lecture hall and tell me, "Baba, give this lecture today," I can do it. But I won't do it, he will do it. He who is inside me. I haven't come to America, he has come.

After that I came to Calcutta. For twenty-two years I lived in that condition. Twenty three years I spent begging. I used to go to Surendra Roy's house to beg everyday. He used to give rice. I would take it with me. I didn't have any house. If you ask Surendra he can tell you, you'll understand everything. What sorrow, in what sorrow I spent my days. If you hear that tale of sorrow from his lips it will be better. Hearing it from me -- it isn't right.

My father and mother had a lot of sorrows. They couldn't get food to eat. Mahapurush, who is God, Ishwar, who told me that much work would be done through me...

Since I was seven years old I went out begging. Then, soaking the rice in the river water, I used to chew and eat it. We had no utensils. My mother would put rice water in the kochu leaves and cook it in the ground.

Father was a sadhu. And he sang "Janaka bollava Sita Ram, Ragu patti raghava raja Ram." He used to smoke a lot of ganja. You know? He never had a job. Once he had some land, which is all gone.

Prahlad, Dhruba, Okrur, Urdhav, Bairagi [the five brothers]. Okrur and Urdhav both died due to not eating. In five years, Urdhav, getting no food, or due to illness, or maybe they couldn't take him to a doctor. Bairagi also died. Dhruba and Prahlad. The two of us are left.

After that I came to Calcutta "without ticket." I was sleeping under the benches. Coming to Calcutta I begged, to see if I can make my mother and father happy. My mother never ate good food even for one day. My mother, who carried me in her womb, she didn't get a single good cloth to wear, even for one day. We used to eat boiled tamarind pits and Dry husk, which we got from the rice-husking which my mother did from door to door. One day I ate very fine husk which stuck in my throat, and I almost died. But by drinking water, and with help, somehow I regained consciousness. I ate husk. Almost everyday I ate husk.

After that, coming to Calcutta, on the ghats of Rajendra Mallick, in Oriya language -- I didn't know any Bengali or Hindi -- at the ghat I asked the Oriya priest for a place to stay. Nobody gave me any shelter.

I used to sleep at the Maidan. At dawn the Bengali ladies used to go past to take their bath. Some of them used to give me moori, some chana, some fruit, some half a paisa, someone a paisa. With that I used to eat. In some months I make three and a half rupees, some months four, some months five. I used to get this much money.

Among these beggars there was one who was like a sadhu. He used to spread out his cloth on the ground at the banks of the Ganges to beg. He said, "Sadhu, you are not getting anything to eat! If you go to this place, there you will get good food."

I said, "Will you take me? I don't know where it is." I said it in Oriya. During noontime at the Rajendra Mallick Square all the beggars used to come and receive prasad from Jaganath. After eating I would sleep on the sidewalk. Three or four years of my life I spent like this.

On that ghat, after eating chapati, I used to vomit and have diarrhoea. They took me to the nearby hospital. After looking after me for a while they said, "He is dead." They threw me into the morgue. Later on they came and saw that I was alive.

Then the doctors became afraid. It was British time then. They gave me twenty-five rupees and said, "Baba, don't say anything to anyone. We didn't know you were alive."

(Athena enters and speaks to Pradeep, telling him if he didn't move his car he would get a ticket. Baba lights a bidi.)

BABA: Oh! Bhagavan! To light one bidi takes a lot of matches. Om Shanti.

(Hindi conversation with Bhagavat ensues, and Bhagavat takes his leave.)